Suggestions for raids to avoid injustice

I think that we need to examine our way of raid group creation guys. And I don't mean the SSC or TK raid only. Karazan and ZA are also raids and we need to determine a proper raid group creation policy in order to avoid the issues that took place in Saturday night 7/6/2008.
We need to keep it on schedule, not only the time and date of the raid, but the participants as well, and keep the Karazan raids on a very well maintained program which (should provide at least) provides badges to us all. I think that the item hunt is a major concern to us all and we all want better items, either by drops or by badges. So let's organize this and fix the problem by making Kara groups, ZA groups, SSC and TK major group(s)! It is fun for those that participate in these raids but THEY are not the guild. We all are, my self included, so plz none of you should think that I desire a steady participation for me and forget about the others.
We should not refuse to help in a Kara group that has dire need of our skills (tanking, healing dpsing) when our younger members want to go to collect stronger items. I have heard excuses of various short, and I really don't like it. Then again, some are so plain honest and give it to you face to face "I am bored to go to Karazan" and there you have it. We were all small time 70lvlers and we all wanted the exact same thing that our small time 70lvlers want...to get descent gear!!!
Please take some time and consider these things cause I strongly believe that our guilds success and progress (for all that matters) depends on our good (or not good) planning-scheduling of raids. I really don't want our guild, which I consider to be my friends too, to become a party of few who want to get better gear in expense of other players. I have seen this happen to other guilds. Please let us learn from past mistakes and not repeat them.
This is not aimed to fulfill personal needs and gains, but for the benefit of the guild. I have no intention to offend anyone!Please excuse me if my opinion does so!
PS: Excuse my (ab)use of English, i try to express my self as efficient as I can
FLAT LINERS FTW

I dont think that your opinion offends anyone you have a point there,we are aiming to do that by our new forum.Read this plz We are moving.As i describe in that post this site has sign in for raids which meens that we are going to scedule some raids and you are going to sing in for those.Karazhan and ZA are some of the raids that it is going to be on that system.Give us some days and this site is going to be ready(we are still w8ing for an answer about the name of the site if it is going to be www,flatliners.com).There is a plan to run some karazhans for the new ones and not well dressed( that we shouldn't have in our guild nomore cause of our progress).So dont worry and be pattient.Furthermore not everybody have the gear to do ZA, it is a raid that we wont stop even if we get t6,as soon as we find some more tanks with descent gear that are capable to run it with no problem their going to be more groups and not only 1.I think that i covered all of your questions and i really like that you opened this topic cause it seems that someone cares about our guild and talks about matters that concearn the guild progress(cause it will be a progress when we dress up a little this persons that you talk about).That kind of people we want into our guild.So Blackstuff +1 from me and be pattient m8 this system that you are talking about is c'ming, we are working on that and you ll see that it is going to work just fine.
Farewell my dear guild m8 see you online!

I have to say that this is one of the most honest,good thread in the forum.

Blackstuff has 100% totaly right i fully aggre with him.

I agree with Black. Although KARA and ZA are considered "Free" runs they need a little bit of planning so that everybody is happy in the guild. I understand that making a group for Kara with the best players of the guild makes it a fairly easy 3 hour full run but this also destroys the possibility to form other guild based Kara runs. I believe that a maximum of 1 raid level tank 1 raid level healer and 3 raid level dps should participate in each kara group and not more (unless there is great availability). I beleive the lead team should take on the responsibility to organize this. The same with ZA. if we can not organize 2 groups due to lack of suitably geared people then we should take turns as we used to do at the beginning.

The situation of last Saturday which Black mentioned was very disturbing indeed I hope it will not happen again. After the 25man raid we were 20 people which wanted to continue to 10man raids. A group was formed with the 10 taking all tanks and healers and went ZA and the other 10 or more of the guild were left out with no organization or raid leading. And when they tried to form a KAra group taking the remaining guild mates and randoms, the first group took additional people from the second group!!!! So the second group was not viable and disbanded.

I believe what should be done in such situations is the people should be divided in groups if possible taking care to make them equally balanced. ANd if there are limiting amounts of certain classes which is usually the problem then a clear statement should be made to everybody and an arrangement set. For example to make one group and keep some people for changes in others bosses or arrange their participation in the next ZA day. So that nobody feels left out.

I will not forget how impressed i was, when in my first day in the guild i saw 3 kara groups running at the same time. THis is an organization achievement that even larger guild with more that 200 people have not done!!!!!

PS. Looking forward for the new site Merdoc and the organization features you mentioned. Good job.

Hordi

im agree with you about that issue. of kara and za raid.

in my opinion i see no point to have again 2 or more sceduled kara groups cause if we run ssc and tk means that we have gear and skillz to go there. some ppl will say that we have to gear up the new ppl. my answer for this is, WHY? why class leader recruits ppl that needs many kara raid runs? forgive me but we are not a kara guild and many ppl of this guild waste lots of time from their lives to bring this guild to the point and run and progrees in ssc.

but we can do another think, we can set a day in the week, an off raid day dedicated to kara.
and all ppl of the guild that wnats something from kara or some badges can join that groups.

the other part now Zul Aman, yes ofc za has some special gear and many ppl wants them. and yes we can set 2 groups to go. BUT i dont want to have situation like old days in kara, when i take some new ppl that said me ''ye i need to go to kara ill be on time...'' and never appear

if we want to go 2 za groups must have members that want and can raid. and also to be more realistic. za is not a kara is not for farm, its only for some gear and also za is a 10man raid that needs a specific set up of classes.

that means that we need 2 paladins prottection(1 for each group) 3 heaers(1of them raid healer) and good gear dps. none group can afford the loss of 1 paladin tank.

i have seen it many times that we try without a paladin and we never can reach the 2ond boss


also i think we need some new ppl in the guild for some classes (not all). that means that we need ppl gear and attuned for ssc and tk and za not new ppl with green staff and want to go to kara.

maybe i sound bad or something, but i try to be realistic. i love this guild and im deticated to this guild and the guild members of flat liners thats why i want to see some steps and for forward and not back to the begining

Thiseus wrote:

some ppl will say that we have to gear up the new ppl. my answer for this is, WHY? why class leader recruits ppl that needs many kara raid runs? forgive me but we are not a kara guild and many ppl of this guild waste lots of time from their lives to bring this guild to the point and run and progrees in ssc.

+1 Thiseus

I would like to make a small reminding of Kara status!! The Kara raid is a major badge source and I find it hard to believe that there are riders of our guild who want nothing from badge vendors anymore!!! I consider myself as one who needs some items from badge vendoers. So I WANT to go to Kara cause in 3 ours tops I collect 20+ badges, which I certainly cannot do in any Heroic Instance! So plz don't forget that Kara raids is not only for those who want the drop items to get descent gear! Badges are quite good for many raiders that go SSC and TK as we speak!Myself included
So KARAZAN BADGE FARM FTW guys!!! YIOUPIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!

Thiseus i agree with what you said about the 1 preset day for KAra. But still planning will be necessary to make equivalent groups and not 1 overpowered group and 1-2 heavy wipers group.
Regarding ZA since specific classes are necessary and specific gear levels, then we should set a limit for gear quality. So that everybody knows if he is eligible for ZA and not have unjustified wishes. And furthermore this would set a new target for people to become qualified for ZA. ALL people considered qualified for ZA should rotate in groups according to needs and nobody left out!!

I'll drink to that Hordi, well said! Gear prerequisites for every raid!!!!

Radebe Smeagol Zapsi
Thiseus Wazzer Merdoc
Nekros Painmuster Morendel
Acrob Themis Anaftra
Fonias Sinrah
Elvadar Andalouar
Giosakhs Ellesedil
Faraw
Nazgoul
Mzchaos
Darkfairy
Solaki
Giunone
Terrorteo

This is a list of some of people who have joined guild runs in ZA and many many more dps I am forgetting at the moment.The truth is that I would feel the same if I were in your shoes that night BUT .....morendel had organised many times runs in ZA and has announced in guild channel.....Who wants any items from 1st boss or 4th boss???

All people who were online and responded were invited....there is noone who would refuse to give his place in the raid for someone who would need an item from the bosses we can handle for sure.And now I move on to the point of selection of the people who joined that raid.....when you have many people online you try to choose the best geared but ALSO the most experienced.....also you tend to choose people you played with many times.....outcome of that choice was to reach the 5th BOSS...something that never had happenned before!!


I can't agree more with what Thiseus said about the raid setup and I feel that Fewo and Hordikos should have been invited sometime.Blackstuff Hordikos be online more often and I bet you will definitely be invited for ZA.At the moment only 2 tanks are available and both of them warriors......so don't expect 2 groups.It just happened to be someone else instead of you that day.


P.S. After such a long time together I think we know each other enough to understand if some people want to get geared at the expense of others and that is definitely not the case here!

Cheers for reading my long post and contact me in game to discuss it in voice chat because I am bored to write such a long message again

I would love to have more (much more) free time to be online, believe me. But other things (job, 2nd job etc) are keeping me of line!
So I am available only at Friday and Saturday, which I happen to work at my 2nd job (internet cafe). That means that if I don't go to ZA-Kara-TK-SSC at these days I'll probably never go! And to be honest, after we finished raiding at SSC and tried repeatedly to ask if there was going to be another raid to join in (no response there except from few people who said that they were logging of) I decided to form a Kara group myself! While I was trying to find people to join in (starting of course from our guild) I didn't pay much attention to the guild chat, only the /w to those I tried to invite...so there you go, guilty as charged for not paying attention! But I must point out that before that I DIDN'T get any answer on whether there would be a group for raiding! So please excuse me for saying so but I felt a bit bad that particular day! Especially when the ZA party took my (only) priest too!
Thank you for understanding and bearing my constant whining

Anaftra thanks for the vote on ZA participation for me Fewo and Black although this was not my argument. I have no problem staying out of a raid when i know its my turn to stay out, or when someone else needs an item , or if i know that i will enter later on another boss or even next day. I have no urgent need to enter ZA.

Regarding the election of the people who join a raid i agree with you that when guild progress is on, then the best geared and most experienced players should participate. I do not think downing bosses 1-4 of ZA qualify for this case since its not guild progress.

Regrading the other selection criteria you mentioned i sincerely hope they are not really true. I would hate to know that participants are selected due to friendship (how many times they have played with me). I believe that all people which have appropriate gear should have the same opportunity to enter a group.

And since as you said these are difficult times and we can only organize only one party (due to lack of tanks, healers) one should be extra careful in the selection (so that we do not have people that have been 20 times in ZA and others that have been 0)

I hope we go though this "no tank" phase fast and start running more groups to have everybody satisfied.

Hordi

Quote :

Regarding the election of the people who join a raid i agree with you that when guild progress is on, then the best geared and most experienced players should participate. I do not think downing bosses 1-4 of ZA qualify for this case since its not guild progress

just to mention that flat liners for 1st time in the guild history downed Jan'alai

i want to say something else about the zul aman raid. why all the ppl of the same class dont you discuss what you need from za and share your spots

its a solution that we did in paladin class (the healers) we talk to eachother we discuss what we need and we change our spots in the raid. and the main holy paladins of the guild have done many za runs and take some loots that needs.

in my opinion many ppl can do this cause i cant belive that if someone want something from the first boss of za and loot it, he want to go every time!!!!


from my point of view i have take the loot i need from first boss for example, so its not nessecery to go again and again, many times i give my spot to another holy paladin to go.


i know its not the solution to the problem but we all can arange it until we have the ppl and set up for another za group

I totally agree with you.

And i am really proud of the progress that was made in the ZA boss on Sunday. GJ guild.

(Nevertheless the discussion about participation was about bosses 1,2,4 that were downed Saturday).

I guess enough said about this issue. Lets move on guys.